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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Nov 17, 2010 5:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Groping undead

I have been following the implementation of DHS policy at airports . I have read and seen accounts from passengers , TSA employees and the bureaucracy in D.C .. Something is very wrong here . This isn't about R's or D's , since the road to this ugly point is paved with decisions by both parties and administrations . It seems we are looking at the wrong end of the telescope to find security threats . Should we all be groped or how about a more targeted , nay profiling approach instead . If there was ever a airline that has faced serious security threats for decades it's El Al . Isaac Yeffet, the former security chief for El Al Israel Airlines has some very interesting commentary in the last link . Here are also some other reactions . What do you think ?

Penn Jillette

Last Thursday I was flying to LA on the Midnight flight. I went through security my usual sour stuff. I beeped, of course, and was shuttled to the "toss-em" line. A security guy came over. I assumed the position. I had a button up shirt on that was untucked. He reached around while he was behind me and grabbed around my front pocket. I guess he was going for my flashlight, but the area could have loosely been called "crotch." I said, "You have to ask me before you touch me or it's assault."

He said, "Once you cross that line, I can do whatever I want."

I said that wasn't true. I say that I have the option of saying no and not flying. He said, "Are you going to let me search you, or do I just throw you out?"

I said, "Finish up, and then call the police please."

When he was finished with my shoes, he said, "Okay, you can go."

I said, "I'd like to see your supervisor and I'd like LVPD to come here as well. I was assaulted by you."

He said, "You're free to go, there's no problem."

I said, "I have a problem, please send someone over."

They sent a guy over and I said that I'd like to register a complaint. I insisted on his name and badge number. I filled it out with my name. The supervisor, I think trying to intimidate me, asked for my license, and I gave it to him happily as he wrote down information. I kept saying, "Please get the police," and they kept saying, "You're free to go, we don't need the police." I insisted and they got a higher up, female, supervisor. I was polite, cold, and a little funny. "Anyone is welcome to grab my crotch, I don't require dinner and a movie, just ask me. Is that asking too much? You wanna grab my crotch, please ask. Does that seem like a crazy person to you?" I had about 4 of them standing around. Finally Metro PD shows up. It's really interesting. First of all, the cop is a BIG P&T fan and that ain't hurting. Second, I get the vibe that he is WAY sick of these federal leather-sniffers. He has that vibe that real cops have toward renta-cops. This is working WAY to my advantage, so I play it.

The supervisor says to the cop, 'He's free to go. We have no problem, you don't have to be here." Which shows me that the Feds are afraid of local. This is really cool. She says, "We have no trouble and he doesn't want to miss his flight."

I say, "I can take an early morning flight or a private jet. " The cop says, "If I have a citizen who is saying he was assaulted, you can't just send me away."

I tell the cop the story, in a very funny way. The cop, the voice of sanity says, "What's wrong with you people? You can't just grab a guy's crank without his permission." I tell him that my genitals weren't grabbed and the cop says, "I don't care, you can't do that to people. That's assault and battery in my book."

The supervisor says that they'll take care of the security guy. The cop says, "I'm not leaving until Penn tells me to. Now do you want to fill out all the paper work and show up in court, because I'll be right there beside you."

The supervisor says it's an internal matter, and they'll take care of it. "If you want to pursue this, we're going to have to go through the electronic evidence."

I say, "You mean videotape? Yeah, go get it."

She says, "Well, it'll take a long time, and you don't want to miss your flight. We have no problem with you, you're free to go."

The cop says, "Your guy grabbed his crank. That ain't right."

So, I fill out all the paper work and insist on a number to call to register a complaint. She says that I filled out a complaint, and I say, "I want more, give me another number. " She gives me a number that I find out later has been disconnected. I leave. I have a card with the name and number on it and the bad 800 number for the FAA.

My flight is way delayed, so I go to Burger King with Glenn - and all the feds are now off duty and at BK and sneering at us.

The next day the woman in charge of public relations calls me to "do anything to make my McCarran experience more enjoyable." I was a little under the weather with allergies and busy, so I didn't call back until yesterday.

It took some phone tag, but I finally got the woman on the phone. I was very cool and sweet. I explained the problem. "Do you allow your crotch to be grabbed without being asked?" I didn't exaggerate, I said that there was nothing sexual, I wasn't hurt, and it wasn't my genitals. I just said it was wrong. She said "Well, your feedback is really important because most people are afraid of us." She said, "I'd love to meet you so we could clear this up, and everyone wants to meet a celebrity." She said she had watched the videotape and there was no sound, but she saw him reach around. She said she couldn't tell me what was being done to him but . . . and I stopped her and said, she shouldn't do anything wrong.

I said that I had talked to two lawyers and they said it was really a weird case because no one knows if he can be charged with assault and battery while working in that job. But I told her, that some of my lawyer friends really wanted to find out. She said, "Well, we're very new to this job . . ." and I said, "Yeah, so we need these test cases to find out where you stand."

She said, "Well, you know a LOT about this." I said, "Well, it's not really the right word, but freedom is kind of a hobby with me, and I have disposable income that I'll spend to find out how to get people more of it."

She said, "Well, the airport is very important to all of our incomes and we don't want bad press. It'll hurt everyone, but you have to do what you think is right. But, if you give me your itinerary every time you fly, I'll be at the airport with you and we can make sure it's very pleasant for you."

I have no idea what this means, does it mean that they have a special area where all the friskers are topless showgirls, "We have nothing to hide, do you?" I have no idea. She pushes me for the next time I'm flying. I tell her I'm flying to Chicago around 2 on Sunday, if she wants to get that security guy there to sneer at me. She says, she'll be there, and it'll be very easy for me. I have no idea what this means.

I tell her that I'm still thinking about pressing charges, and I don't just care about me, it's freedom in general. I say the only thing that was good about it, was that while they were dealing with me, maybe they weren't beating up people in wheelchairs. It was amazing. All she was trying to do was make me happy. She said she'd burned a CD ROM of my video and it was being sent all around and they were going to change their training. She said, "We're federal employees, we're working for you, you pay us and we want customer satisfaction. It doesn't matter what the law is, we have to make you very happy so your flying experience is a pleasurable one, and most people don't give us this kind of intelligent feedback."

So, that was it. I'm flying on Sunday, I have no idea what will happen. How crazy is this? Do I really have some sort of mysterious VIP status to shut me up? Should I press charges? She said she was going to talk to the cop. I said he didn't see anything. She said, "Well, he may be able to see the forest for the trees, because he was right there." I quoted his "crank" comment and she laughed and then knew that was a very bad sign. I said, "He'll tell you I was polite, cold, angry, and funny" - that's more than should be expected of me. I still don't know what I'm going to do, but my advice to everyone is complain all you can and call the cops. I think it might make a little difference. Maybe you can become a VIP too.

Penn

http://www.nydailynews.com/travel/2010/11/17/2010-11-17_stop_touching_me_tsas_security_patdown_of_3yearold_girl_caught_on_camera_.html


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/11/17/national/main7063414.shtml

And finally ,

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/full-body-scanners-are-illusion-security

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Nov 18, 2010 12:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

Your cowardly government would rather molest children instead of profiling members of the religious sect which is responsible for all of this terrorism associated with the airlines. I'm not flying until they knock off this politically correct bullshit and start searching those ragheads who worship the AK-47 assault rifle, hand grenades and various crude bombs.

This post was modified by cousinkix1953 on 2010-11-18 08:47:55

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Poster: user unknown Date: Nov 17, 2010 6:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

though I am basically a pacifist, and totally abhor violence against women...I would've decked that TSA b!%$h if that was my 3 yo daughter...and then filed sexual molestation charges against her

guess I'd be in jail now, huh?

and I hope Penn Gillette's charges go through and the TSA "perv" goes to jail

This post was modified by user unknown on 2010-11-18 02:06:02

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Nov 17, 2010 6:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

Hubby has flown in and out of Chicago, San Diego and San Francisco in the past two weeks and underwent the "fully body scan" twice and a full pat-down once (in San Diego). He found the pat-down far more objectionable.

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Nov 17, 2010 8:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

Saw this posted on another site that I frequent...

Great idea, if we can get it to work.

ANOTHER GREAT IDEA FROM AN AVERAGE JOE! WHY AREN'T PEOPLE WITH COMMON SENSE LIKE THIS IN WASHINGTON ?

Here's a solution to all the controversy over full-body scanners at the airports:

All we need to do is develop a booth that you can step into that will not X-ray you, but will detonate any explosive device you may have hidden on or in your body. The explosion will be contained within the sealed booth.

This would be a win-win for everyone. There would be none of this crap about racial profiling and the device would eliminate long and expensive trials.

This is so simple that it's brilliant. I can see it now: you're in the airport terminal and you hear a muffled explosion. Shortly thereafter an announcement comes over the PA system, "Attention, standby passengers! We now have a seat available on flight number..."

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Poster: deadpolitics Date: Nov 25, 2010 2:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

i agree completely. so funny and effective

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Poster: Daddy D Date: Nov 17, 2010 8:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

both a very funny & very sad article . . . way to go Penn!!!

I love what he said, something along the lines of "I have a lot of disposable income & increasing people's freedoms is kind of hobby of mine."

Too bad most of us are so much of a rush when we're going through airport security & can't afford to miss our flight in order to stand up for our rights.

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Poster: user unknown Date: Nov 19, 2010 8:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

more insanity.....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40278427/ns/travel-news

perhaps if the entire population of the United States refused to fly for 1 week the airlines would seek a more rational solution to airport security

This post was modified by user unknown on 2010-11-20 04:06:18

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Nov 19, 2010 8:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

I could go on and on Bill . I do not believe this will stand . Get ready for the whole profiling argument though .

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Poster: ChefChappy Date: Nov 18, 2010 4:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

I don't understand everyones problem with the pat down. Yes, the video with the kid is totally wrong, but we all complained that there was a lack of security that led to 9/11 and now were complaining about too much security? Imagine someone sneaking something on a plane in there pants...we'd all be up in arms about how TSA didn't do their jobs. I've flown quite a bit lately and the pat downs seem to only come to those who don't want a body scan. Well...you can't have it both ways...you must be checked before getting on a plane, thats just a fact in todays world.

All of a sudden there are a few viral videos out there and its the topic of conversation on every show and news report. There are many thousands of people who have had no problems at all yet we are up in arms about a very small % of flyers? Everyone has another option if you don't like the pat down....Amtrak.

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Poster: Purple Gel Date: Nov 18, 2010 8:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

The people with the tightest security and the best security record over the last few decades are the folks at El-Al. The ex head of security says that these machines and invasive pat-downs are unnecessary and do not work.

http://tinyurl.com/2ddxx8p

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Poster: rastamon Date: Nov 18, 2010 1:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

not often I'm on the same page as Keith Olbermann, but this is great. El Al has it figured out, of course Keith is a day late and a dollar short. I heard all about El Al Airport Security more than 8yrs ago on conservative media outlets - duh!

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Nov 18, 2010 9:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

Thank you! Saw him interviewed last night. Also, the number of terrorist highjackings of planes is lower now than it has been for decades. I'm a hell of a lot more worried about cargo than passengers.

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Poster: user unknown Date: Nov 18, 2010 10:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

Thanks for that link. Mr. Yeffet makes a lot of sense...TOO MUCH sense for the American body politic to understand.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 20, 2010 11:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

Hey PG--I know the two of us have had our share of discussion topic disagreements, BUT I will heartily second your nod to ElAl, having flown with them a few times in the 70s/80s when visiting the Negev Desert. Very efficient, very polite, very apparent (ie, the security teams at the airport, etc., etc.).

Didn't bother me at all, and neither did any of the other security personnel I met with in many middle of nowhere sites...wherever you stand on the bigger political issues of the region, the people of the desert thereabouts are warm (no pun intended), open and welcoming to visitors (although I should qualify that this was more than 25 yrs ago).

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Nov 18, 2010 6:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

>the pat downs seem to only come to those who don't want a body scan.

No, not necessarily, my husband had to do both at one airport; he wasn't objecting to the scan or making any sort of problem, it was apparently routine.

The pat-down is potentially triggering for people who have been the victims of sexual assault in the past, in other words, it can be like a repeat of the trauma. So it's like we're saying those people just can't fly anymore, too bad.

I personally think it's a huge waste of resources, there have to be better ways to address terrorism, this just isn't it.

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Poster: ChefChappy Date: Nov 18, 2010 6:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

I'm not saying that those people can't or shouldn't fly but where does it stop. People can claim any number of pyscological trauma to get out of things.

I'm not a fan of the pat down but I see it right now as a necessary evil until as you say something better comes around. Maybe if there is some type of trauma in a passangers past they should present a doctors note and some type of accomodation can be made. But in the end, I do believe that the majority of flyers are willing to put up with the increased security and screenings if it creates a safe environment and if not, don't fly.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Nov 18, 2010 9:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

" People can claim any number of pyscological trauma to get out of things. "

The false claims sicken me to no end b/c it further stigmatizes people with a serious medical issue(s) . It adds to the boy that cried wolf factor and the derision that people with these medical issues already face .
A doc's note ? I don't think that would add to security .
Why do I as a lawful citizen have to be subjected to hands on by the state ?
Or go through a scan which shows me naked . I'm sure the government is right that they are deleted instantly and would never show up on the internet . Now I wouldn't be any fun to anyone , but what about children or women ?
Of all the options , these are the best ones ?

And well , well , well . What do we have here ? A former head of DHS now profiting from the sale of full body scanners in airports . Is this what is the best way ?

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/full-body-scanner-lobby-michael-chertoff-rapiscan-2552674.html

And finally a Great little film ( done CH style ) ,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXDLQPfqc04&;feature=player_embedded#!

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Poster: user unknown Date: Nov 18, 2010 9:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

"Maybe if there is some type of trauma in a passangers past they should present a doctors note and some type of accomodation can be made"

you mean like the lady with the Doctor's letter stating she had a titanium hip, and was told that TSA didn't have time read such things and she could submit to the "pat down"(already being referred to as the "feel up" by many travelers)or just not fly.

According to John Whitehead, president of the Rutherford Institute, government officials cannot strip search or pat down people unless that agent has reasonable suspicion that the person being searched is involved in some type of criminal activity. Does this mean that holding a valid airline ticket is now "reasonable suspicion" of involvement in criminal activity? Or, does it mean that the TSA is above the law? It is historically proven that anytime a government agency is allowed to operate above the law, the citizenry ultimately suffers.


This post was modified by user unknown on 2010-11-18 17:40:53

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Nov 18, 2010 6:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead


Yeah, there will be frivolous lawsuits. I guess I'm too cynical that all this technology will create a safe environment anyway. We're always a step behind, developing technology to prevent the *last* thing terrorists tried.

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Poster: ChefChappy Date: Nov 18, 2010 7:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

well said and I couldn't agree more

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Poster: madmonkmcphee Date: Nov 18, 2010 6:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Groping undead

By the title of this post I thought we'd be discussing zombie intercourse, darn

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